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Bills' Murder - Robert Houghton Interviews Doyel Shamley about the events surrounding November 5th and 6th, 2001

Updated : Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:35 AM

Transcript of Bill’s Murder, Part 1 03/25/05

            Today is Friday, March 25, 2005. Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen and thank-you for tuning in to The Hour of the Time. We have a special program today. My name is Robert Houghton. You’ll know me as the co-host of the Hour of the Time and I have on the line Mr. Doyel Shamley from Eagar, Arizona our very own host and after receiving I don’t know how many hundreds of email over the past several years and replying  to each one individually trying to explain the night of Bill Cooper’s shooting, we decided it might be better for Doyel if I was just to do an interview with him and have him take us through all of the details one final time. There will be a transcript of this broadcast available on the Hour of the Time website, which is of course, and we’ll be making this tape available for a special pricing as well.

Rob            So, are you there, Doyel. Alright.

Doyel            Yeah. How’s it going Rob?

Rob            I’m doing well, I’m doing well.

Doyel            Alrighty

Rob            Well, why don’t we roll back right to the very beginning I guess. If you could give us some detail on how you and Bill ever ended up hooking up together in the first place like how did you come to know about Bill Cooper, was it through reading Behold A Pale Horse or UFO research or just basically give us an idea of where the two of you first started meeting and talking.

Doyel            - Basically it was mainly through research into the Brotherhood of the Snake and the Figian cap of liberty of course it’s relevance to the French Revolution as it’s called and we started with mail correspondence and then went on to phone calls, conversations back and forth all the time and it became quite consistent. And then I decided to host him in a very relevant area of California where at the time the so called patriot movement was very strong so I hosted him for a two day seminar on symbolism because we had been comparing notes already so basically they, when I say they, him and Annie and the girls, Ally was just a little baby, came out to my region of California, the central valley, compared notes real quick the day before and I had all the equipment, the multimedia equipment set up and we held a two day 16 hour roughly, seminar on symbolism.

Rob            So, he would have been covering a lot of the stuff that he covered in Mystery Babylon and then continued after that.

Doyel            Yeah, of course, yeah. We did a full video presentation so people didn’t have to rely just pure on explanation because of, you know, it’s one thing to have read it, studied it and understand it or whatever after years of studying the stuff but when you can relay it with visual aids we had all that available held that conference, and at that point his regular conference was coming up again and he asked this time if I would be willing to come out and speak, which I did so and of course that’s all video taped.

Rob            Now that’s down in Eager there or just outside of Eagar, Pinetop or whatever.

Doyel            Yes, and that was at Jeff’s ranch, many people would be familiar with Jeff and then we started working together. Of course, then after that it was basically a daily phone call type situation or something. After that, and next year we did the conference again. We had pretty much compiled a lot of research and decided we needed to compile it as a big unit because I had stuff he had never seen and he had stuff that I had never seen, etc. and we had thousands of these things and we compared notes so we compiled it and at that point in ’98 is when I moved full time because I would just take my army leave and come out here for oh a week at a time and things like that and spend the time out here with him in person, and at that point in 1998 is when I moved here permanently after that last conference. And I moved in with him of  course and the family.

Rob            And then he was pretty much doing it, I remember hearing your voice a lot of the time in those years doing the show or exclusively on your own when Bill was taking a night off or whatever. But I guess it was at that point full time Hour of the Time related research with Bill.

Doyel            Yes.

Rob            You were pretty much part of the company.

Doyel            Yes, besides the girls having latched on to me pretty heavily because of their age and I’d been around all my cousins children, so dealing with children was no issue with me. Everything became just part, it was just a family. I lived with them, we split up who was mowing the lawn, who was cooking, who was shopping, whatever. Then that day came along when the federal marshal showed up while I was in Showlow running a mail errand for the operation over there in Showlow because you can only get so much here. You go to Showlow, it’s kind of the metropolitan area for us.

Rob            Right.

Doyel            Go over there and do bigger things and when I got back, is when he was waiting for me, and the marshal had showed up with their theoretical warrant which they never served, by the way, because upon being notified of their jurisdiction, they immediately walked out to pass the middle of the road, they knew that, they knew the deal, because half way over would have been over towards his property so they backed out and that’s when tension of course heightened at that point.

Rob            Now, what year…

Doyel            I mean all people started coming out of the woodwork, Fillerup with the FBI out of  Pinetop-Lakeside those situations.

Rob            Now, that wasn’t the same warrant that we were talking about for the night of November 5?

Doyel            No.

Rob            You said that warrant was never served anyways but that was a different…

Doyel            Yeah. This one was a deal from the federal government and it was basically for IRS and bank fraud.

Rob            OK.

Doyel            But they served it with U.S. federal marshals and he was on the web site and I have the copies in fact on a CD of the website from that period where he was listed right on the front page in the top 10.

Rob            OK.

Doyel            And that was a whole different issue which they couldn’t prove crap on so that’s basically why they didn’t pursue it. Then Fillerup, now he was with the FBI out of  Pinetop, now that is who Bill had contacted to give him all the evidence after the Oklahoma City bombing, asking him to pass on to the chain of command that this was an inside job and Fillerup was familiar with this of course so then he came over while we were just barbequing one day in the back yard but it overlooked the road and he came zooming up one day and we stopped him and he got out and tried this typical ploy “Oh, I just got this envelope I want to give you, it’s a personal note and this and that . No. See ya and go tell your bosses you guys really stepped on this time and it’s not gonna play down like Waco or nothing and at that point it was basically a full defensive mode as of that point as far as the property and the family because of the probing constantly by the federal agents.

Rob            Now, that eventually resulted in, I guess we could say, a stalemate where nothing progressed any further after, well a certain number of years had gone by, I guess.

Doyel            Yes, and leading up to that day in fact, except for the various probing and typical stuff they would do, taking pictures of me going shopping, I don’t know what the big deal was of me buying a head of lettuce that I could do things like that. Except for things like that they basically backed off and they realized that they had nothing to go on whatsoever. It was just to shut them up and in fact Fillerup was eventually replaced because he ‘didn’t bring Bill in’ and was moved off to their Siberia, wherever that might be.

Rob            So, as we move towards November 5 then, you weren’t living in the house with Bill at that point anymore, you had moved out on your own in Eagar?

Doyel            Yes, that’s correct, down the way, I don’t know, 3 blocks or so.

Rob            I’ve been to both houses, ladies and gentlemen. Without the use of binoculars, you can easily see Bill’s house from a lot of points in town but very easily from where Doyel is right now so.

Doyel            Yes.We did that partially because of the fact that it was very convenient to constantly keep an eye out because if anything looked goofy at my old place like one day just a stray dog, and a police officer was stopped here, instantly the phone was ringing and Bill could see the property.

Rob            And Bill had some contact with local police and Bill was actually quite friendly with the Eagar police department. Is that true?

Doyel            Yes. He had actually had both good and bad to say about the chief, Scott Garms at the time. Of course, most people only remember the bad, but actually he was probably 50:50 actually on the air and in person both and in fact, a lot of the law enforcement, I could safely say, actually about 90% listened to the show every night because when it was even skipping, we would get phone calls about music during the day. So it was something they would listen to all day and so there was a relationship or rapport I guess it would be better to say.

Rob            For those people who don’t know, Bill ran 101 FM in Eagar, it was a low power micro FM station that broadcast basically 24 hours a day. It would broadcast the Hour of the Time show live and some other programs when they were available, but mostly it was an oldies music station classic hits from the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and up to modern day I guess, so that’s what Doyel is talking about when he say people and the police would be listening to the station all day because it was broadcast locally in the Springer/Eagar area.

So what happened, I guess, I don’t know what time did you get up in the morning on November 5. You obviously were doing your normal routine with Bill. How did the events of the day go?

Doyel            Well, I had gone to work like normal, that would be the fifth technically and gone to work, done all the normal stuff, got the mail, did the errands, did some shopping stuff and came up to have lunch like normal. He was actually quite jolly that day, everything was up, a big project he had been working on as far as finishing up Cua Viet was finished. I wish people could see the result that evening and as far as the air goes and so everything was basically normal. I mean that was all there was to it and then I went off on my way back to my regular job.

Rob            Now, people will remember the last show that Bill did was on the Cua Viet book and the website, I believe it was at the time; now that website is no longer up, we do have a copy somewhere. When the book gets published, we’ll try and put that back up. But just so people are aware, Bill didn’t do a huge confrontational broadcast that night where he had challenged local law enforcement to, you know there’s rumours all over the net he had somehow aggravated the police that day on the radio program and that’s why they came later in the evening to finally shut him down for good, so to speak.

Doyel            That’s not true.

Rob            That’s not true. It was just the Cua Viet show, you can actually order that from us if you are interested in getting that just send in and ask for Bill’s final broadcast. So Bill did the show, it would have been what time locally when he would have finished the show up?

Doyel            That would have been 8:00, well ok 9:00 and p.m. of course and then that was just normal par for the course. By then I was home, eating dinner, cooking  dinner whatever. I could hear it over the FM, I had that advantage and then that evening I did not listen. No, in fact most times I didn’t listen because I had already helped him put the show together so I knew the content already ahead of time.

Rob            Great

Doyel            So that wasn’t so much an issue. So quite often I didn’t listen to the show, I didn’t listen to it that evening and everything was just par for the course, went to bed, etc. The next morning, the house was waking up, people were getting ready for work, the boys were getting ready for school, etc, and I’m out in the living room headed outside and have my coffee if you will and I notice that the street is full of patrol cars, and we’re talking like dawn, so it’s very early and so I wasn’t sure what was up but I kinda poked my head out, looked around and it was odd how they were arranged. The street was definitely blockaded on each end and there were cars just right out front.

Rob            Now this is out front of your home.

Doyel            Yes, and having not heard anything I thought what the hell is going on. I mean that’s what was running through my head, so I asked inside I don’t know what’s going on and looking out the front window I noticed the Sgt. Fraser, now he’s with the Eagar police department; at the time sergeant, now he’s a lieutenant. He was walking up, he had just appeared to be chastising the new guys, pointing hands and they took off. He came up to the door, and was headed up, I should say, to the property, and so I came out because he was not dressed normal. He’s got the black wind breaker, tactical pants on, not what like you see here, ok. So something was wrong at this point, ok very wrong. Sgt. Fraser just simply said “Hey Doyel, I need to talk to you , if you want to sit down here or go inside or what.” And I said “well, whatever, so I said “let’s sit down here, I’m having a smoke.” So we sat right down there on the front porch and he was very blunt and professional, I feel, it’s the way I would have wanted it delivered, looking at it 20:20. He just said well I gotta let you know that Bill’s dead and what happened was was there had been an alleged complaint against him by Dr. Hamblin in town, Eagar, of a purported assault and basically locally it was just like well whatever and handed off to the county,ok. So the county had sat on it and then decided they had something for a search warrant, so according to Sgt. Fraser, they came to serve that warrant, but they did it with a tactical team and they also did it at 11:47 at night, I believe it was 11:47. Anyway, just shy of midnight, which is obviously out of the normal.You get a guy who isn’t guilty, there’s been nothing yet, nobody’s been served yet even, it’s just supposedly a Dr. in town.

Rob            And I want to reinforce here ladies and gentlemen that Bill did have a relatively friendly rapport with local law enforcement. Now law enforcement in general, of course, Bill did many programs on what he thought was wrong with law enforcement in America, in that they had become law enforcement officers as opposed to peace officers, but locally he had a reasonable rapport with these gentlemen and probably sending a marked patrol car up to Bill’s house at 10:00 in the morning and coming up and knocking on Bill’s door would have resulted in Bill opening the door and talking to these gentleman and obviously they did not want, however this raid was performed, they did not want to talk to Bill. There was a foregone conclusion in their minds, I believe, from everything we can, all of our research we’ve done since then, there was a foregone conclusion in law enforcement didn’t want Bill to walk away from this one. So like you say, Doyel, it is very odd that they decided to do this at 11:30 at night.

Doyel            Yeah, it was out of the norm because I can grab you another handful of people who got the same charges on them probably around town right now and they won’t be getting hit with the county’s tactical team at just shy of midnight just to serve a warrant before a trial or anything. And actually as far as our rapport with law enforcement, we had actually worked with them in cleaning up the area because of transients and what not, happened through the area using drugs and leaving drug paraphernalia around. We had worked with them to get that situation resolved. We had congressmen and their staff at the house while we were barbequing on the back porch, so you know these people were there and that evening according to, at the time, Sgt. Fraser, the sheriff had a tactical meeting at the fire department which was just down the hill and the sheriff conveniently was out of town. So, in charge of the helm was a lieutenant Tafoya, Andrew Tafoya, and he’s nothing but a little rat piece of junk and he had made the call with the sheriff out of town all of that we’re going to take this charge that has been setting around forever, and we’re going to go and serve a warrant, just shy of midnight, but with a tactical team. So, they posed as just a bunch of group of people out causing havoc, drinking beer, whatever, you know, down the way from his house, probably 250 yards.

Rob            Just to give you an idea, ladies and gentlemen, Bill lives on the top of a hill in Eagar and it’s a relatively undeveloped subdivision. Is there still only the one house up on the very top of the hill there, Doyel?

Doyel            Ironically, just about, to my surprise even, I didn’t know either, driving from the backside, someone moved up a modular just about a month ago.

Rob            Ok. So, I would say there’s probably, I don’t know, 10 or 15 lots up there?

Doyel            Yes.

Rob            Something in that neighborhood and down at the end of the subdivision is kind of a nice view of the whole town and there would be times when teenagers would in fact, you know, on a Friday night or Saturday night, do things that teenagers do, and they would go up there with their six pack of beer and make it into a little bit of a lover’s lane or that kind of  thing, and Bill had in the past gone up and asked groups of  teenagers to get off the hill, basically shoo them off the mountain, I think is the terminology that you used in the past. And of course, they were all scared of getting caught by their parents or whatever, and they would pile into their vehicles and leave Bill’s little subdivision, so this is something that had happened in the past which is probably the reason that Bill didn’t give you a call before he headed out to investigate the ruckus that was going on at the end of the subdivision.

Doyel            I would have to assume so because it was quite normal if something seemed awry. It didn’t matter what hour it was, he would call me and I would be instantly up there even when some guests were there that were not what they had worked themselves up to be, they were scared to go outside and check out things in the dark because the boogey man, so even though there’s three other people, grown men there, he still would have to call me, and I’d go look around and know everything was good, that it was kids down there drinking beer and whatever. It was, you know, quite the normal thing and it was like blueberry hill.

Rob            Right.

Doyel            They had gone up there at this late hour, unmarked by the way, ununiformed and did this event.

Rob            The news reports that I heard said it was a, it was actually quite well phrased in saying that the ruse apparently worked that they had a truck load of drunken teenagers up at the end of Bill’s house, so it was I guess first off the truck that Bill would have seen up there, an unmarked, I’m assuming, half ton truck or something to that effect.

Doyel            Yeah. It was just a plain old Chevy step side, a newer model.

Rob            So they were ununiformed and unmarked in that vehicle, that vehicle was unmarked and the officers were ununiformed. Ok.

Doyel            Yeah, and the stereo was blaring and what not, and the hooting and hollering of course. So it was quite normal, ok, and for something like that, I mean.

Rob            Right.

Doyel            And, now again remember this was per Sgt. Fraser who was called immediately in the middle of the night to go up there and get a debriefing, per se, even thought he was never there, from the sheriff’s deputy about what went on and Bill went down there in his pickup, of course, he’s not gonna walk. Talking midnight, no street lights obviously, rocky road, not paved, drove down to the cul-de-sac told them to skedaddle and they still never identified themselves or anything along those lines. And he, in fact, according to Sgt. Fraser, upon his briefing from the same department, the Apache County Sheriff’s Department, Bill told them “I’m going back to the house to call the Eagar Police”.

Rob            Which is what a typical reaction would have been to say “Hey, if you kids aren’t willing to leave I’m going to go call the cops on you”. And then he wanted them off the property. Now, I just want to draw a definite line between the two police forces that we have involved here in this incident. The first being the local town police, which is the Eager Police Department and the second being the Apache County Sheriff’s Department. Now it’s the Apache County Sheriff’s Department that actually performed this raid in the town of Eagar. So how were, what does Sgt. Fraser have to say about how were they briefed about the fact that the Sheriff’s Department was going to come in and do a raid on Bill’s house in their jurisdiction, I guess.

Doyel            Well, they weren’t. They were completely told after the fact. In fact, the way it came down the chain of command was they performed this and then after the shooting was done, called the chief, which was Scott Garms and notified him that he had a citizen dead. And they did this and this in his town. So then, of course, he called his two right hand men, which was lieutenant and sergeant, and that would be Lieutenant Kirkham and Sgt. Fraser.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            So then, all three of them met immediately and were up there, I think by about 1:00. Because, you know I’m sure the sheriff delayed a little while, covered up whatever they wanted to cover up, then they had to make phone calls and people had to get away and get dressed, so there’s an hour leeway there. They got up there and that’s when, of course, the local pd, the police department, needed a briefing. You know, what just occurred in our township.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            And at that point is when they relayed this information and Sgt. Fraser feeling that he admitted in his own report that he had a pretty good rapport with us, thought he would be the most logical one to come to my doorstep.

Rob            Ok. So, just to catch back up to where we were, I apologize for taking you off track there for a second, but Bill had gone down and the last thing you had said was that he had offered or he had suggested that he was going to call Eagar Police Department if they weren’t willing to get off the mountain, and at this point he was still unaware that they were officers trying to serve an arrest warrant on him.

Doyel            Yeah, and in fact at that point based on just historical evidence in Arizona, being that he was going to involve law enforcement, the agency should have identified themselves which they still did not do and they admitted that to the police. Ok, so he had to turn around, which would be a three point turn around, because basically a lane and a half and was headed back to the house, like I say about 250 yards or so, and at that point a deputy came out of the little shrubs, the juniper trees, and they rushed his vehicle because he was just bebopping back very slow actually which wouldn’t be uncommon, either. You know by going back slowly and what not, that might be the last thing that a high school kid need to convince him that this guy is not messing around and go back and call he cops. And they came at his vehicle, basically three directions and the one that came at the driver’s door, now that was reported heavily in the press that Bill ran over him and this and that, that’s total bs. Bill had a step side pickup and according to the briefing team, the guy basically ran up and Bill had had his window down still because he was talking to this group of what he thought were kids, high school or college, whatever, and he jumped up on the step and tried to swing at Bill, and Bill knocked him off and they admitted that it was a punch that knocked him off, no running over him, no nothing like that.

Rob            Ok. Well, I mean that never surfaced at any future law suits either. There was never anything else from, no complaints from this particular gentleman, so to speak.

Doyle            No, it was just he made a dumb move as an officer and got punched.

Rob            If, you are interested, ladies and gentlemen, the Cooper Hill Band song, Crusher, there’s a video of that available on the website, and you’ll actually see video footage of Bill’s hill, and we drive from one end of the hill to the other during that video. So, if you’re not interested in the music, you can mute the music and just watch the video there and you can see the terrain that we’re talking about. And being November, I would have assumed that it was pretty much like it was, I guess, in April when that video was shot.

Doyel            Yeah, except for the fact of probably one of the worst monsoons ever.

Rob            Right. It was raining a lot at that time.

Doyel            And so it was incredibly dark outside.

Rob            Now, was it raining the night before as well?

Doyel            From what I recall, no. It started mid morning.

Rob            Ok.           

Doyel            When it goes off here because of monsoons, massive lightning shows

Rob            So, you remember being woken up at 2:00 in the morning, you said, I’m not sure if that got cut off on our tape. The monsoon hadn’t started yet, it probably had started at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning as you’re saying. Now, Bill pushes this guy off of his pickup truck, who’s trying to swing at him to stop him, I’m assuming at this point, are these officers in uniform?

Doyel            No, at this point they still have not identified themselves.

Rob            Ok. But I understand there were officers with tactical gear up closer to the house, so they would have been easily identifiable as police officers I would think at that point, or as members of some tactical team.

Doyel            Yeah, and the thing is though where this occurred was, let’s say from the cul-de-sac 50 yards, you still got 200 yards to cover, and being that there’s no street lights he wouldn’t have been able to see the front of his house which was the whole face and when he got to what’s the crook in the road, which you can see in that video that you mentioned, that’s when a car came zooming uphill, and that would be the access from town up this little hill and that one tried to cut him off and at that point I’m assuming he knew something  was wrong. Now, here is the real clincher. In the briefing they told Sgt. Fraser, who was decided the one to come talk to me that he, Bill, had put the vehicle, the truck in park and had stuck both his hands out the window, palm open fashion, basically showing I don’t have nothing in my hand.

Rob            I’m not a threat, basically. That’s the idea.

Doyel            Yeah. Well, then at that point, more people came out of the other trees, you know I don’t mean out of the air, this little brush, 6 to 8 feet tall.

Rob            Is my memory serving me correctly in that there were fourteen officers involved?

Doyel            Yeah. At this point…

Rob            So, there would have been five or six in the truck or three or four in the truck and then a few in the bushes, the patrol car, the house and then these other gentlemen that were coming up. Ok. Just trying to paint a picture here of what happened, so.

Doyel            Oh, of course. And at this point he obviously realized that something was wrong and he whipped his hands back in, threw it into gear, no he did not grab a gun even thought there were two available in the truck. I know for a fact, and he didn’t do that though, he put it in gear and floored it trying to avoid the car that was attempting to blockade his way home, down this little lane. He went over the ferns and the evidence was there after the fact because the whole exhaust system was torn out basically from the front header the front axle back and the marks were of course on the fern and dirt and that was avoiding that vehicle which was Apache County Sheriff. And again unmarked though. And then goes up to the front of his house which is just the front lawn, no fences, no nothing like this, he wasn’t walking out his gate and gunned down like some people like to portray and he whipped up to the front of his house at just a slight angle, but still basically parallel with the yard and got out and ran around what would be the back of the vehicle, the truck, to go to the front door. Now, when we say run, people need to keep in mind, we’re talking about a priorily wounded, one legged veteran.

Rob            Bill had an amputation, which leg was it, Doyel?

Doyel            Left.

Rob            His left leg, so just around the knee area, Bill had a, was it above the knee amputation?

Doyel            Yeah, it was pretty high, it would be mid thigh.

Rob            Ok. So mid thigh on the left leg. So Bill Cooper running would be no match for Carl Lewis.

Doyel            No, definitely not.

Rob            He’d be no match for an average man of his age basically because of the fact of the injury.

Doyel            And for his size and what not, he moved fairly slow with just the slightest limp you would think based on his age and size, until you found out that he had a prosthesis, so actually he moved around quite well for having a prosthesis, but running, no. I don’t know how many times us playing ball, flying kites and doing Easter egg hunts, or whatever, throwing rocks at the trees that one of the girls fell down and I’d beat him by fifty steps, you know, getting there to pick them up because he couldn’t run. I mean, it was just not in the equation and he would be crossing the front yard, which would be about 25 foot would be it, from his vehicle, not from his vehicle, but his vehicle was parked right at the edge of it because there’s no fence or gate or nothing like that. So to the edge of the grass is about 25 foot to the front walkway which is a little skinny sidewalk type walkway that…

Rob            Basically just patio type stones.

Doyel            Yeah, and the front door right there, and at that point, according to the Sgt. Fraser, at that point they finally identified themselves, the Apache County Sheriff, that is. But, by then, though, there was one coming around the south side of the house and hiding behind a vehicle which he’d already seen, and  pointing a gun at him, also, and then one coming over a vehicle on the north side of the house over the hood of a vehicle that was in the driveway and was basically right at the edge of the yard. And at that point, they claimed that he pulled out his 38 Smith & Wesson, it was a stainless chief special and he just swung his right arm back and started pulling the trigger. At that point, because he opened fire, they opened fire and shot him to death right there on the door, basically on the doorstep, he was…the blood and everything was left there of course so I got to deal with all the mess. Therewas even hair still laying around and whatnot. It was probably 18 inches from the edge of the sidewalk, so you’re talking 3 more foot from the front door.

Rob            Now, were any of the shots that Bill fired, any of  those slugs recovered, because Bill allegedly shot one of the sheriff’s deputies and apparently there was a law suit which we’ll talk about a little later. Were any of those bullets ballistically matched to Bill’s gun?

Doyel            No. If it was done, I haven’t found it.

Rob            Ok. So we haven’t seen that evidence, even the head shot to Officer Marinez, Deputy Marinez, there was…were there no ballistic tests done on that bullet?

Doyel            There’s none in the report.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            So, if they were done, they’re not published as part of the regular report, and that’s where the problem gets into, that we’ll get into later.

Rob            Now, at that point, I think most of the listening audience will understand that in any situation like that, when a gun goes off in the hands of somebody that they are trying to arrest for whatever reason, the officers are going to return fire. Now, I think the question here is, has actually been properly explained in the autopsy report that Craig Pradarelli did on that show he did with you, that interview, I think that most of that information can be obtained in the autopsy report if people are interested in exactly how Bill was shot, how close these officers were, what the prevailing theories are as to all of that type of information.

Doyel            Yeah, the autopsy report we did, which I just called Part 1 only because Craig is going to be back on with us again.

Rob            Right, he’s taking a look at some of the other police reports and…

Doyel            He clearly points out the angles, the distances, even the order based on pure anatomical evidence the order of fire, or I should say, the order of hits.

Rob            Right, like it seemed like the shot to the heart came after the shot to somewhere else in his body because the heart was still pumping at this point when he was, you know, there’s different evidence, I guess people will be more familiar with that kind of thing because of television programs like Law & Order, CSI and things like that.

Doyel            Yes, basically the order of shots shows that the shot to the head was prior to the shot to the heart, because the amount of hematoma that was coagulated in the neck and the cranium area, but because of the heart shot and the arteries that had perforated, the pumping ceased immediately.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            So, it had to be in that certain order and that throughout the report he goes step by step, you know we did that on the air step by step in the report as far as the order and the distances which are a key thing, and the angles.

Rob            Yeah, he talks about stippling, which is basically evidence of gunpowder blast from the muzzle of the gun and you have to be within a certain distance to have stippling on a gunshot wound, so you have to be within three feet to have a certain type of stippling, you have to be within one foot to have a different kind of stippling, and then beyond those distances there is less and less stippling until the point that they can’t be seen at all and he discusses each individual wound and whether stippling was present or not, and what conclusions we can draw from that evidence.

Doyel            Yeah.

Rob            All right, Doyel, well I think that this is an appropriate point to take a musical break, and we’ll play a song for Bill here, and maybe we can let you pick that tune, something that he really enjoyed.

Doyel            Well, I know the favourite song, but I don’t know if you’ll have it.

Rob            What one would that be?

Doyel            That would be the one he always sang with Ally.

Rob            Ok, yes indeed. We’ll put that one on. Coming up next we have that from one of his previous programs that he did, so. Ok, so stay tuned, ladies and gentlemen, coming up after this short musical pause we’ll be back and we’ll be finishing up with what happened later that night after Bill did fall to the ground, what happened the next day. We’ll come back to Doyel waking up in the morning coming out onto his front porch, and this is when he met the officer, and then the turmoil that happened for the next 24 hours, I guess, probably just until 9:00 p.m. that night, and then we’ll jump forward to the day of the funeral and there will be a mention of who performed that service, a few of the attendees, and where we’ve gone from then. Stay tuned.

Rob            Well, I hope that song brought a smile to your face, ladies and gentlemen. I know it certainly harkens be back to the days when I remember a couple of shows that Pooh played that number on. Certainly it harkens back to some of the happiest days of Bill’s life and I know we’re talking about some very sad details here tonight and I know that it’s not the easiest thing for Doyel to talk about and I appreciate you offering to do this, hopefully for one final time here and we’ll get everything out in this one episode. I’m sure that the listeners really appreciate that too.

Doyel            Yeah, it sounds good.

Rob            Alright. So, I guess where we left off Bill had been shot and he’s now lying in his, basically on his walkway up, going up towards his house and this would have been shortly after midnight on, I guess now, it would be November 6?

Doyel            Yeah, well they…the minutes there are confused because they basically, depending on what report you read, you get the show-up time and the finalized time at roughly the same time, about a quarter to twelve.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            Based on talking to all the neighbors down the way, one of them that was up, the only vehicle he saw going by, because he was up, was about 11:30, so, you know, it’s the time frame, yeah 11:30 total time to midnight. Of course, they would have positioned themselves at the end of the road, there little fictitious party going on, what not.

Rob            Now I understand that there was some contact made between the Apache County Sheriff’s Department and other emergency services in town, specifically I’m talking about ambulance service and things like that. Now is it true that they were told to operate that evening or at least around that time of night with no sirens, they were told to, they were supposed to be silent, they were told to go quiet?

Doyel            Yes. The paramedic just prior to going up there for the Apache County Sheriff, that is they were informed to go perform, what they call a service and they had told the paramedics department, which is volunteer for the most part, but of course there is one or two paid on shift, that are paid, to leave all the sirens off, the lights off, all that. And that’s probably the only reason that I didn’t hear anything going on, because if all that stuff would have been blaring I would have heard it. It was a decently weather night, so with the cloud cover and not much wind at the point when I went to bed, the bedroom window even was cracked slightly and being only about a mile away, I would have heard sirens. And the neighbors also reported at the drive by distance to get to his house that there was no lights or sirens whatsoever, and I followed that up with interviews face to face with paramedics and they had been briefed just prior to the Apache County going up there that not to run any sirens, lights, they did not want to alert the public what they were doing.

Rob            And at some point, obviously, there would had been an ambulance in need for, I mean if an officer got injured, now in this case Marinez did get injured, so obviously he was spirited off to a hospital at some point, right around that midnight mark when all this went down. Were you ever given any reason why they did not attempt to resuscitate Bill, even, I mean maybe the injuries were too severe obviously from the autopsy report we know they were too severe, and he couldn’t have been resuscitated, but why was there no attempt made, do you have any knowledge about that? 

Doyel            Well, the decision was made based on one of the deputies that saw the two main shooters taking place, we’re talking Deputy Goldsmith who since died in a mysterious accident.

Rob            That’s the motorcycle accident?

Doyel            Yeah.

Rob            Ok.           

Doyel            And Marinez, that those were the two main people in the front yard, but there were other people getting close enough that you could see enough because we had a sixty watt bulb on the front porch so, I mean, it was enough to tell and essentially what the police were told was that he was basically dead before he hit the ground. Yet the autopsy report did not play that out.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            But, either way, if there was some time given to Marinez and with the loss of blood based on what I had to clean up, and I had to identify the body of course at the morgue and everything, it wouldn’t have…you wouldn’t have had to waste much time quite honestly, let’s say over on Marinez.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            Where Bill would have been dead either way because the wounds were massive and like you say the one to the cranium, perforated heart, these were major wounds and the bleeding was profuse, so at that point theoretically one of the deputies on site, and it was backed up by Lieutenant Andrew Tafoya, who was the one that night that was in charge because the sheriff was gone, that care was to be given to Marinez, not Bill. And then the paramedics got there and did there, you know, rush stat-type care on Marinas and then got him down to the local medivac, which we used to have, we don’t have anymore, and flown out into Showlow and then on to Phoenix, whatever.

Rob            Ok. So, but there was never any attempt made to even take a look at Bill, kind of thing?

Doyel            No, basically none whatsoever. They deemed it in their own minds that there was no need to look at it and it kind of follows up with the next step in the whole sequence because upon a person being deceased or hypothetically deceased, you had to call in the county coroner.

Rob            Right.

Doyel            Well, conveniently the county coroner is Dr. Scott Hamblin, who’s the one who the whole assault charges surrounded. So, they didn’t call him in because of conflict of interest so they had to call Navajo county’s corner and wake him up, and get him over here. Well, we’re talking the next county over.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            So, then in the middle of the night, he’s gotta get up, get dressed, get what he thinks he might need and drive. So, there’s another couple of hours leeway before he got there being dead on site, and then he was left there throughout the entire day through some record monsoons for that year out in the open. In the sense of the fact that he was left on site, I did query with the law enforcement officers when I get though the barricade and they told me that a gentleman up there said we’re not barbarians and took his poncho out of his truck and covered up Bill.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            Because he was just left out there in the open. And then it was left at that, and then about, this is going from memory at this point now, Jewkes Funeral Home, which is the only one we had at the time, they came up, I would say it would be about 4:30 in the afternoon and picked up the body because that’s who picks up the bodies and holds them to do autopsies, which in our case is Tucson is the forensics lab.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            So, five hours out.

Rob            Now, at what point during the evening, Bill had two dogs, Sugar Bear and Crusher, and I understand that during the raid Sugar Bear had run off, I guess wasn’t on a leash or something like that, or wasn’t on a chain at some point, but Crusher was still chained to one of the vehicles. Now, in the police reports it also shows that Crusher was shot, is that not correct? Now why would they have shot a dog that was chained up?

Doyel            Well, what they…what happened was was in the driveway Crusher was tied to the bumper of the, I think it was a ’76 Buick and he was barking and essentially going after, according to their report, they went to go try to just grab the dog by the collar, now this is real ironic because all of us knew Crusher and about Crusher, they knew better than to do that.

Rob            Well Bill always described Crusher as the best dog that he ever owned and it was able to learn hand signals and would obey, basically two people on the planet, and the first being Bill, the second being you.

Doyel            Yeah.

Rob            So, obviously the dog’s interest was in protecting Bill.

Doyel            They took a new animal control person and told him to go up and try to grab the dog, which is absurd because they knew that Crusher was a defensive dog and was going to watch the property and of course, his owner laying over there on the grass. Upon him almost getting bitten, then that was the excuse used to pop Crusher in the head.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            And then Sugar Bear was chained up actually to the front porch but it was the end of the porch where Marinez fell and Sugar Bear and the two chickens kept, well quite frankly playing in the blood, and the paramedics who were getting in their way, so they unlocked, left the chain there, just unhooked it from the leash and he ran off. Probably didn’t know what the heck was going on and he actually surfaced about two weeks later again and went to a dear friend of ours for a family pet.

Rob            Ok, well I’m just trying to cover all the angles of everything here because these are questions that people have asked what’s going on here, so, this point in the evening it would be early morning or whatever, and then when the officer came to your door, what time would that have been, Doyel? You said it was near dawn, kind of thing.

Doyel            Yeah, but because of the time of year, November, you’re talking let’s say 6:00.

Rob            Ok, and this is when…

Doyel            It was pretty dark.

Rob            Now, he obviously didn’t explain all these details to you on your front porch; he told you that Bill had been shot and was dead and…

Doyel            No, actually he explained all these to me.

Rob            Oh, he did.

Doyel            Yeah, we had a massively long meeting.

Rob            Ok. I wasn’t aware that that all happened at that point. At some point was it this gentleman that took you in to, I don’t know what you would call it…

Doyel            The command centre, ICC.

Rob            ICC, the command centre? Ok.

Doyel            Yeah, that’s what it’s called, Incident Command Centre and that’s what, it makes the tactical guys who can’t make it in boot camp so they come out here and work for peace, it makes them feel big; they have all these acronyms for the quasi-military thing.

Rob            Right

Doyel            And they had set up a centre at the edge of town at the rodeo grounds, that was the Incident Command Centre and there they had radio communications and the fed was there, and they had black helicopters, they had the land and everything.

Rob            Now, was this where the initial raid started from?

Doyel            No, it initially was organized after that tactical meeting at the firehouse, which would be, as the bird flies, 200 yards from Bill’s house.

Rob            Ok.

Doyel            But the firehouse had always been there, it wasn’t like it was…and they had met there for years, so it’s not like that it’s any significant thing, the fact that it was there, whatnot, they met there at night for years.